Yeonmi Park – North Korean Defector: “Juche” Die, Markets Rise
2014-06-22 · Guest: Yeonmi Park (North Korean Defector and Activist) · 52:30
Yeonmi Park on escaping North Korea and the Songbun system
Bob Zadek interviews North Korean defector Yeonmi Park about her harrowing escape from the Kim regime through China and Mongolia. They discuss the “Black Market Generation,” the failure of the socialist economic system, and how the introduction of markets and outside information is slowly transforming North Korean society from the bottom up.
Topics: North Korea, Defection, Communism, Socialism, Free Markets, Black Markets, Human Rights, Spontaneous Order, Economic Freedom, Songbun Caste System, Students for Liberty
Speakers: Bob Zadek — Host Yeonmi Park — North Korean Defector and Activist
Introduction [00:00]
Bob Zadek: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Bob Zadek Show every Sunday morning at 9:00 AM. I am your host, all-reliable Bob Zadek. Thanks so much for listening. We are the only live libertarian talk radio show on the air all weekend. This is it, your dose of liberty all weekend. Thanks so much for listening. 800-345-5639 to join the conversation. 800-345-5639. We are the show of ideas, not attitude. No attitude for us, no sirree Bob. We are the show of ideas. Thanks so much for listening.
This morning, it is my extreme pleasure, and it will be yours as well, to welcome to my show Yeonmi Park. Yeonmi Park will join us live from Seoul, South Korea. Yeonmi was born and spent her early years until she was 15 living in the People’s Republic of North Korea, one of the most oppressive governments in the world, as we know. A government where personal freedom, economic freedom, free markets to be sure, political freedom are all non-existent.
And Yeonmi will tell us her story, how she came about to leave North Korea, traveled through China and Mongolia and ended up in South Korea. And you will also learn what about Yeonmi’s journey and her learning and her life experiences brought her to spend a Sunday morning on a live libertarian talk radio show. Yeonmi, welcome to the show this morning.
Yeonmi Park: Hello. Good morning.
Bob Zadek: Hi, welcome to the show. Although I shouldn’t say good morning. It is about 1:00 AM in South Korea now, isn’t it, on Monday morning?
Yeonmi Park: Yeah, right. It’s 1:00 AM night, midnight.
Bob Zadek: So I’m sorry—thank you very much for giving us an all-nighter, if you will. Now, you were born in North Korea and you lived there until you were about 15.
Yeonmi Park: Yes, I was born in North Korea.
Bob Zadek: And tell us about—now, how did you come to leave North Korea? What first motivated you to leave North Korea and how easy was it to leave?
The Songbun Caste System [02:35]
Yeonmi Park: Oh, so when I was in North Korea in 1993, so I was just born in the like normal and very regular family in North Korea. So when I was young, I didn’t think about leaving North Korea. But when I was growing up, my father had to go to like prison because of his illegal business. So his imprisonment destroyed my reputation too, because in North Korea there’s a Songbun caste system. So it determines your positions and the your futures in life. You cannot really do anything about it because government tells you, they control everything. So that’s why after he went to jail, and we found out that there’s no bright future in North Korea for us. So we decided to leave.
Bob Zadek: So what happened was, Yeonmi, your father was in prison and therefore you go on some kind of a bad list and your family suffers as a result and you can’t get out of that system. You’re then on this bad list and a lot of the—any benefits of being in North Korea, such as there are, are denied to you. Is that correct?
Yeonmi Park: Yes. So under Songbun caste system, my father’s sins are my crime. Therefore, my blood tainted. So I’m not like innocent anymore. I’m also guilty too, for their standard.
Escaping to China [04:08]
Bob Zadek: So therefore you made a decision that you had to leave North Korea because life was just too hard?
Yeonmi Park: Yes, it was so hard.
Bob Zadek: And was it easy to leave North Korea?
Yeonmi Park: No, not at all. We had to walk a lot and then we just extremely cold the day, we walked the frozen water.
Bob Zadek: You walked the river. You had to cross a river which was frozen and that’s how you got across?
Yeonmi Park: Yes, I crossed a river in March.
Bob Zadek: And you had to cross the river while it was frozen.
Yeonmi Park: Yes, yes.
Bob Zadek: And where did you cross into? You crossed into China?
Yeonmi Park: Yes, I crossed to China. So I escaped with my mom and my father, three of us.
Two Years in Hiding [05:30]
Bob Zadek: In China. And were you allowed to be in China? Did the Chinese people, the Chinese government, allow you to be there?
Yeonmi Park: China government, they don’t accept us as a refugee. So we had to hide our identity whole time. And I had to be careful always, use the Korean and then the just show them the my identity. So that was the most difficult time in my life.
Bob Zadek: And you could not speak because you didn’t know Chinese and you couldn’t let them know you were speaking Korean.
Yeonmi Park: Yeah, I just had to pretend that I don’t know how to speak any language. So it was like extremely hard. I couldn’t turn on the light during the nighttime because we had to just like being inside so nobody can see somebody’s lived in that apartment. We could not make any noise in the room, just like live very silently.
Bob Zadek: And how long were you living that way?
Yeonmi Park: I lived in China for less than two years.
Bob Zadek: And you had to live that way without speaking in public for two years?
Yeonmi Park: Yes, I had to be like that. I couldn’t go to school because I didn’t have any certification. So I couldn’t go to school and I couldn’t have a Chinese friend and just being myself at home and I had to live that life for two years.
Bob Zadek: Did you think that was going to be how you were going to live forever or was there any hope for you—did you feel any hope at all?
Yeonmi Park: There was no hope for us. But later, luckily we found out that South Korea, they accept us as a refugee. So we had a dream after that.
Crossing the Gobi Desert [07:25]
Bob Zadek: And how had you—when you were in China, you had to then get over to Mongolia, didn’t you?
Yeonmi Park: Yes, yeah, I had to cross the Gobi Desert.
Bob Zadek: You had to cross the Gobi Desert. And you crossed that in the winter I think, isn’t that correct?
Yeonmi Park: Yeah, it was 2009, January. So I had to cross the Gobi Desert. So I only brought the compass with us. So my mom and me and there was a five more people and there was a three-year-old kid also there. So we had to give him like sleeping medicine so not make any noise. And then we were just literally following the like North Star from the Big Dipper just cross the desert.
Bob Zadek: Oh my goodness. You were crossing the desert just looking at the stars to see your direction?
Yeonmi Park: Yeah, yes, because the compass was like useless. So we couldn’t find the direction use that. So we just have to follow the star.
Bob Zadek: Oh my goodness. Did you think you were going to be successful? Were you frightened the whole time?
Yeonmi Park: Oh, I was so like almost I was just about to give up because in like desert, I have to cross like 16 miles fence. And then there were some of them there was electronic city. So we have to digging under the sand and digging it and then just go like cross it again. So it was so much work. And it was extremely cold because it was minus 40 degree at that time.
Bob Zadek: And how long did it take you to cross—how long did it take you to cross the desert?
Yeonmi Park: It was one day.
Bob Zadek: One day to cross the desert.
Yeonmi Park: Yeah, we just we didn’t took any rest. We just walked for like for one day. No stopping and just running and just crawling and digging like that. So we did that for one day. And then after that I was so frustrated and didn’t have any energy to walk anymore. That was the moment I was just about to die soon.
Repatriation and the Choice of Death [10:00]
Bob Zadek: Oh my goodness. And what did it feel like when you got to Mongolia?
Yeonmi Park: Oh, I was just so like I just couldn’t believe that at that time. I was so sad because it was like desert. And then the most sad thing was nobody really cared about my life. It’s like it was really sad if I’m dying in this desert, who will remember my name? Who will know that I was dying here? So that was the most saddest thing. And then if I just met the Mongolian soldiers and then they saved us. And that time was just oh I thought okay I survive.
Bob Zadek: Why did—now the Mongolians were—they were friendly to you, the Mongolian soldiers?
Yeonmi Park: No, they were just always threatening us that if you guys do something wrong, if you guys don’t work really hard, and we will just send you back to China. So I had we had to begging them to let us to survive because they just keep saying that we will send you back to China. So we were just almost said that we will die here if you send us to back to China. So after that they didn’t send us back. But since we were just almost just kill ourselves in front of them if they did.
Bob Zadek: You were going to kill yourselves in front of them if they sent you back to China?
Yeonmi Park: Yeah, because we know that if we go back to China, they will send us back to North Korea and then we will be all killed. We knew that very clearly. So we when we just crossed that Gobi Desert, we brought the knife for the prepare for kill ourselves if that happens. So we prepared everything already. So when the soldiers told us that we will send you back to China and we just brought the car and then okay, we are just gonna die here. We’re not going back to China.
Bob Zadek: So you brought knives—so you brought knives for the purpose of killing yourselves if you had to go back to China?
Yeonmi Park: Yes, we have to. Before I started that journey, I was I really had to be okay with the death. So then I could start that journey because that journey is extremely difficult and there is no guarantee that I can make it through. So I had to be okay with the death. So we didn’t really scared of anything. That was the end, I was willing to accept that. That was the end of my life.
Arrival in South Korea [12:50]
Bob Zadek: And you finally got to South Korea.
Yeonmi Park: Yes.
Bob Zadek: And what did it feel like when you got to South Korea and you had your first experience with freedom?
Yeonmi Park: Oh, that was like just everything in this world. I felt like nothing to envy in this world.
Bob Zadek: It was worth it.
Yeonmi Park: It was so worth it and it was just everything. It was just most beautiful thing I think in the world.
Bob Zadek: And you knew you were going to be free then for the rest of your life for the first time?
Yeonmi Park: Oh, yeah. But still there is some restriction as a North Korean refugee here because still I’m a spokesperson to the North Korean human rights. And of course there is still some threaten from North Korea. So I really have to be careful. But still I’m having a freedom here and enjoy it. And then I think I will never get tired of freedom entire my life.
Bob Zadek: And you can speak what you want pretty much and not be afraid?
Yeonmi Park: Yes, yes.
Bob Zadek: Do you feel now for the first time or when you got there that you didn’t have to be afraid anymore?
Yeonmi Park: Yeah, really. It’s like I just cannot believe that I can just call like Kim Jong-un name without any our supreme leader with that word. When I was in North Korea, I didn’t have freedom to speak, listen to, wear, like literally nothing I could do by myself, follow my free will. But here I can do anything here with that freedom.
Bob Zadek: And was it hard to—you were so used to not having freedom and being afraid, was it hard to just feel comfortable that you didn’t have to be afraid or did it come pretty quickly?
Yeonmi Park: Oh, I think first time I kind of afraid of it because when I just got here people just kept asking me that what do you want to be in the future? What do you like to do? Like what do you think about this? Because when I was in North Korea, nobody asked me that what do you like to do in the future? What is your dream or what do you think about this? Because they never cared my thought. It was not going to be like what I—I never thought about what I want to be in the future because government they controlled everything. They set our destiny. So that was not—I was not used to with that questions. So I came here first time, I just I couldn’t just—I was not used to think on my by myself. So first time was kind of really hard choose what I want. But now I’m really enjoying that.
Bob Zadek: This is Bob Zadek. I’m speaking with Yeonmi Park. Yeonmi Park is a North Korean refugee. She escaped from North Korea, traveled across a frozen river between North Korea and China and across the Gobi Desert with a group of seven other refugees. Finally made her way through Mongolia to South Korea where she is experiencing freedom for the first time. The freedom that we, to our shame, constantly take for granted and can be passive as we see our freedom slowly eroding. Not that we are in any danger of becoming like North Korea, of course not. But freedom is to be protected against any encroachments whatever. And why it is so important that we learn what Yeonmi Park, a young woman who has risked her life just to experience freedom. There is so much we can learn from her.
The Black Market Generation [18:46]
Bob Zadek: Now Yeonmi, you quickly started to learn about economics. I think you studied on the internet?
Yeonmi Park: Yeah, yeah, with the internet and the Bastiat books and yeah, I’m learning it right now.
Bob Zadek: And did you learn any economics—well I guess you were too young when you were in North Korea. So you knew nothing about economics when you got to South Korea.
Yeonmi Park: Oh, yeah. I never heard about the word economics before. And yeah, I never heard about the economic system before when I was in North Korea. So that was just very new idea and very new to me. So I’m just learning it right now is how it’s working and like that.
Bob Zadek: And are you studying with other North Koreans or with South Koreans or by yourself?
Yeonmi Park: Oh, I’m attending university in South Korea. So my major is different, but still I’m interested in the economics and free market, so I’m like trying to how to learn it. So yeah.
Bob Zadek: Now you call yourself part of the Black Market Generation in North Korea.
Yeonmi Park: Yes.
Bob Zadek: Tell us what you mean by the black market definition. The black market generation in North Korea. What does that mean and why do you pick black market? What kind of a black market was there in North Korea?
Yeonmi Park: So North Korea is a socialist country, so there should not be any market or any trading like that. But after like during the 90s, they experienced the economic difficulties at that time. So they couldn’t just give people the food. So they stopped public distribution system and they just allow people to survive by themselves. So people had to just go like in a like very small town or very sitting around. It was not like market, but it started very small thing. So it was like small few traders there and it’s getting bigger and bigger and bigger. So in 2002, North Korean government, they legalized that it calls Jangmadang in Korean. And we call that it’s black market. So black market generation means somebody who was born in late 80s and 90s and somebody who was grown up with that market system, somebody who experienced the market.
Bob Zadek: So you were the first generation—so you were the first generation in North Korea since the Kim dynasty began in 1940s to actually experience markets. There were no markets for the generation before you.
Yeonmi Park: Yes.
Information and Pirated Media [21:56]
Bob Zadek: And so your generation experienced markets, but they also—your generation was also different because you were the first generation to have access to outside information because of the internet and because the government couldn’t stop it.
Yeonmi Park: Right, right. Yeah, so in North Korea there is no—not yet there is no internet, but still there is a like pirated DVDs and USB and the some like outside information. So people still they can watch the outside of movie like Titanic or 007 or WWF like pro wrestling or like lots of Hollywood movies and Disney movies. So people are enjoying it and they are getting into the like culture like Western culture and they started to open their eyes to see the world, the bigger world. And they realized that why they are poor and they are they just strongly believe that North Korea the government have to open their country to the world.
Markets as Salvation [23:35]
Bob Zadek: It is so interesting to me. We’re going to have to go to break in a second, Yeonmi, and we’ll come right back to you right after the break. But before we go to break, it is so interesting that what we learned is we had a totalitarian socialist economic system that could not feed the people. That’s not surprising. And it had to resort—it had to let markets in just to feed the people. In other words, the free market system had to come to the rescue of a socialist total top-down system.
And then we learn, so far in our discussion with you, the second thing we learn is that information is what causes the change. Is that exposure to markets and information is what causes the change. And as we go to break, I invite my libertarian and other listeners to pay attention to these lessons. The markets are the salvation and the markets are the source of our freedom, our economic health. And any effort to suppress the markets is bad for the country.
And the second lesson as we go to break, and we’ll be right back to you Yeonmi in 60 seconds, but the second lesson is how important information is. And to the extent that the government tries to stifle access to information, that is harmful to the whole public life in America. This is Bob Zadek. I’m talking to Yeonmi Park. It is a delight to talk to Yeonmi. She is very generous with her time. It’s 1:00 in the morning in Korea. 800-345-5639. We’ll be back in 60 short seconds.
Bob Zadek: Welcome back everyone. This is Bob Zadek. Thanks so much for listening. We are the only live libertarian talk radio show on the air all weekend. 800-345-5639 to join the libertarian conversation this morning. I’m speaking with Yeonmi Park. Yeonmi Park is joining us from Seoul, South Korea. She is on the phone live. It is now about 1:30 in the morning. Thank you so much to Yeonmi for giving us part of her sleep time in Seoul, South Korea.
Yeonmi was 15 when she escaped from North Korea. Had a harrowing journey across the frozen river between North Korea and China and then crossed again the Gobi Desert from China to Mongolia, finally making her way years later into the freedom for the first time in her life. The freedom and the ability to be, as the Marines like to say, all you can be. For the first time, Yeonmi discovered she was a person and it mattered what she thought. She was allowed to experience and live her life the way she wanted. Something which so many of us take for granted. The shame of it all that we take it for granted. Yeonmi does not take it for granted and risked her life and her family’s life just to experience that which we experience every single day of our lives. How lucky we are and how important it is that we fight to preserve it.
Now Yeonmi, you identified yourself as part of the Black Market Generation. And what distinguished your generation from prior generations is first of all you grew up with no real allegiance to the Kim dynasty. You experienced free markets for the first time. You had access to information and you allowed yourself to think about yourselves as individuals. And because of exposure to markets, you actually had a bit of exposure to capitalism, albeit on a small scale, to free markets.
Now was it—if when people live in a society where there are no markets and all of a sudden the government doesn’t make it legal but allows it, they don’t punish people, how easy was it to learn how to live in a somewhat free market? Now of course it wasn’t free. You can’t use the word free in discussing North Korea. But there was a bit of free markets. How easy was the adjustment to understanding how to do business in a free market with people just cooperating with each other?
Yeonmi Park: Yeah, it’s like very—they can do it very flexibly if they have money. So it’s like but it’s lots of restriction too even though they call it is market, but still government controls it very like very extremely. So people really cannot just get into business like what they wish. So government controls every time and sometimes they banned the like market there. So people considers like Kim dynasty as an obstacle for the private work now.
Learning to Bargain [28:47]
Bob Zadek: And was it—when you first time you went to a market, did it seem strange to you? Did people understand how markets worked? They never grew up in a market. How did they even know how to do it?
Yeonmi Park: So the market was not anything special for me when I was young because the market was the most place I would go with my parents. And then what I was learned was that how to count the money when I was young and how to bargain the products and how to trade. So that was the thing I learned first from my parents. That was the more important than schoolwork. So that’s why I just like market was like kind of my life.
Bob Zadek: Was that because you had to do that to survive? That was the only way to get food?
Yeonmi Park: Yeah, so it’s like without market, North Korea society cannot moving. Cannot people cannot survive. They survive like until now because of the market. Market was the like the created like all the things for them to survive and market is most important thing for the North Koreans.
Appreciating Freedom [30:50]
Bob Zadek: And right now when you study economics and if you were to travel to other countries that don’t have freedom, what would you want to teach those citizens, those people in other countries that don’t experience freedom? What would you tell them that you learned?
Yeonmi Park: I think just I just want to say to the people now I mean of course like in the States and then lots of countries, the people are happy, they really appreciate their freedom. But what I saw was still the other hand lots of people they don’t really appreciate what they have now, that freedom. So like my case and lots of North Korean case, they have to really try really hard and they have to sacrifice lots of things for that freedom. So basically freedom is everything for us. Like if I have a freedom, I don’t need anything else. But just what I was learned here people are just born with that freedom and they don’t know of the worthy of how worthy it is. And they don’t really fully appreciate that freedom. So that’s why I’m saying it’s like freedom. I think if you got the freedom, I think you got everything. You don’t really need anything else. So just I want to keep saying them there is no reason to be like sad if freedom you we all got the freedom here. So I think we have to more appreciate with that freedom and use that freedom right way. So yeah.
Students for Liberty [32:41]
Bob Zadek: And do you—when you—you’re active in the Students for Liberty?
Yeonmi Park: Yes.
Bob Zadek: Now the Students for Liberty is a worldwide organization basically with a strong libertarian philosophy. And when you interact, when you meet other students in other countries, what is it the students—are the students all from countries that are free or not so free or a mixture?
Yeonmi Park: Yeah, I think most of like the people who I met was they are kind of have a freedom now or yeah most of them they do have that freedom. So they just yeah I think they they do that. They really know the meaning of freedom.
Bob Zadek: And when you get together with other students from around the world, what is it that you discuss at these meetings and what do you say to them when you meet with these other students?
Yeonmi Park: Oh, I think just people they just they never lived the life without freedom, without freedom to like just speak or what they listen to, what they are like wearing like clothes or like watching. Like they cannot I think imagine the life without that freedom. So I just remind them how lucky you are, how lucky we are here. So like just remind them if without this freedom our life life can be like this much miserable. So I think that’s the thing what I do and then like raising the awareness of North Korean like issues to them.
Change from Underneath [34:50]
Bob Zadek: And what do you think is going to happen in North Korea? North Korea has almost no freedom now. As you explained, there are some black markets, but there is no political freedom. What do you think will happen in North Korea as a result of information getting into North Korea and as a result of this little experimentation with markets? What do you think will happen in North Korea?
Yeonmi Park: So I’m sure that I cannot say the North Korea will be changed like tomorrow. But I’m sure North Korean people are changing from the underneath. The like government looks unchanged or they are not changing, but they are changing and most of people are changing. So I can see that North Korea will be changed in soon near future. And because people they lost of their faith in the government and then they don’t believe any they they can see the truth now. So there is no way they can believe their government and propaganda anymore. It’s really it’s really hard to going like this. So I cannot really say that it’s gonna be when because I just called with my relatives few days ago with North Korea. So I heard that what’s going on in North Korea that means like all the people they know that how bad Kim Jong-un is and they all understand the like outside world and then why they are poor there. So people who want I cannot say there will be like revolution or something, but the sure thing is nothing is forever. Nothing can last forever in this world. So North Korea will be changed.
Bob Zadek: Change the way China is changed, do you think?
Yeonmi Park: It will be changed like I think it’s like biggest possibilities is like China did. Like open their like economic system first to the world and then later just go change but politically. But now I think they at least have to do something with the economic because people are starving there. They are dying for food. So yeah, I think there will be change but we cannot really see that what it’s gonna be but still there will be some changes.
Spontaneous Order vs. Top-Down Control [37:14]
Bob Zadek: And the changes will be driven by first and foremost by economics. The people I guess—we start with the fact that people are starving. They simply do not have enough food. The government—a top-down government with a top-down managed economy simply cannot feed the people. China discovered that, USSR discovered that. Any top-down economy cannot work. It must be managed or an economy must be driven by what libertarians and libertarian economists call spontaneous order, which means the people will organize automatically. People will build markets and systems from the bottom up, not from the top down.
And North Korea is yet another example of when you deny spontaneous order—a spontaneous order describes a system whereby the citizens if left alone will build institutions and markets and political systems that work. They will do what is best for everybody and it will develop spontaneously, not as a result of top-down control. And Korea is started of course with a top-down system and slowly spontaneous order is taking hold. And that’s what’s happening in North Korea. What’s really bizarre is the trend in America is the opposite. To deny spontaneous order and to gravitate towards a top-down Washington dictates system. So as the rest of the world strives for freedom by building a bottom-up system, we are striving to reduce freedom by gravitating towards a top-down system. It makes no sense. So Yeonmi, you believe that it is economics that will drive the change.
Yeonmi Park: Yes. So definitely market brings change and it will change the country.
Bob Zadek: And from economics. And do you—is the government trying to suppress it or is the government welcoming it because it ends up feeding the people?
Bribes and the Cost of Business [39:30]
Yeonmi Park: Oh, government try to depress it because the like as market or economics grow up, people get wealth and then they see the more like outside media and they can access to the outside information very easily. So government just try to stop it. But they don’t have any power I mean any money or like food to feed the people, so they cannot stop the market. It’s like you know it’s gonna bring the new changes, but they cannot really do anything about it.
Bob Zadek: It is so interesting. And so the government, I guess somewhat like China, is will be happy to hold on to political control but give up some economic control.
Yeonmi Park: Yeah, yes, right. That is a very usual case.
Bob Zadek: I didn’t mean to interrupt you.
Yeonmi Park: I think that’s why North Korean government they afraid of it because every time the economic freedom is comes first and later the political freedom is comes last. So I think they know it and then that’s why they want to stop the economic freedom first.
Bob Zadek: And what happens is economic freedom happens first and in North Korea the government is tolerating it because it has to feed the people or else there will be either a revolution or mass starvation. So the government has no choice. So here we have this inevitability. It has to happen. Economic freedom comes first. And then with economic freedom comes information and a middle class starts to grow. And as the middle class starts to grow, they inevitably will demand some political freedom to go along with the economic freedom. And that is the evolution of a top-down totally managed government to a more free market system. It’s driven by economics, which tells us all that capitalism is the system that will relieve famine and relieve poverty. It’s not very complicated. The market system is always the answer.
Yeonmi Park: Yes, yes, I do really agree that.
Bob Zadek: And has the black market in North Korea—has it been growing?
Yeonmi Park: Yes, yes, it’s growing every day.
Bob Zadek: And the government encourages that?
Yeonmi Park: I’m sorry?
Bob Zadek: The government allows the growth of the black market. It’s not putting people in jail for operating a black market?
Yeonmi Park: There is lots of restriction and but the people stay there is lots of bribes and so that’s why the North Korean system is really not clear like that. So if they just bribe them and that’s okay. So even though lots of the workers for the government, they are very not the loyal for the government too. So they just get the bribes and then not send them to the jail. So that’s why underneath the market gets growing and growing more and more.
Comparing Bribes to US Licensing [41:41]
Bob Zadek: So the market creates wealth and then uses the wealth to buy more freedom by bribing the government officials. So in effect, the freedom becomes a commodity. In order to transact business, it’s a cost. In the US, the cost is we pay for licenses and permissions. In North Korea, you pay the same licenses except you pay them illegally. But it is just like a license. If you bribe the public official, then you get to operate your business. And that is simply a cost of the business, is it not? The bribes?
Yeonmi Park: Yeah, yes, exactly. Yeah, it’s like bribing I think yeah that’s a very common thing happen. So if somebody really want to do something, they have to like bribe then it’s like usually it’s okay for them.
Bob Zadek: So in the US we don’t pay bribes, we pay licenses and fees and we seek permission from government. So you have a license except the license in North Korea is called a bribe. But it simply you have to pay money just so you can transact a business in order to make a living and feed the population. And in North Korea it’s called a bribe and in the US and in more modern countries it’s called a license. It is simply a business cost. And the cost is passed along to the customers so the system in a very bizarre way kind of works.
Human Nature and the Market [43:30]
Bob Zadek: Now what have you—in comparing when you studied socialism and communism, what did you learn in your studies as to why those systems cannot work?
Yeonmi Park: Oh, I think it’s not really I think yeah everybody knows that it’s not really fit for human nature. So it’s like if you like work hard, you have to get more like benefit of it. You cannot share that with your neighborhood. I think it’s very simple theory. So but like when I was in North Korea, I didn’t really see the real like socialist country because when I was just born, it was like here capitalism country because everybody was using money for do the thing and the market was there. So money was like controlled everything in the society. So I couldn’t really see the real like socialist country. But I just I cannot really you know it’s I don’t think so it’s really can work with the human nature.
Bob Zadek: So human nature drives people to a free market system. That’s the natural way to be.
Yeonmi Park: Yes.
Bob Zadek: And it’s only when it is suppressed by government with a gun that free markets don’t exist. That if you let people just operate naturally, they will cooperate amongst themselves. That is the natural way that people are. And to the extent that you try to change that and prevent that, you have to do it by force because people naturally will cooperate. And after all, free markets are not very complicated. In a free market, all a free market is is two people enter into a transaction that benefits both people. There is mutual benefit. No coercion, mutual benefit. So free markets—the word free is important because it means what people do without coercion, without force. And that’s what’s happening in North Korea. It’s starting to happen there. So there are markets in North Korea.
Yeonmi Park: Yes.
Bob Zadek: And they’re growing.
Yeonmi Park: Absolutely. Yes.
Final Thoughts on Cooperation [47:30]
Bob Zadek: This is Bob Zadek. I’m speaking with Yeonmi Park. Yeonmi is a young woman who in a very dangerous trip escaped, if that’s the right word, from North Korea through China into Mongolia and finally after many years of living it sort of sounded a bit like the Anne Frank story to me as Yeonmi has told us the story. Finally found her way to South Korea where she lives and enjoying freedom for the first time and is studying economics and is active in the Young Americans for Freedom. Yeonmi, thank you so much for sharing your story with us. It’s a beautiful story and please do all you can to encourage those students who you meet who take freedom for granted. Remind them, I know that you do that, how important it is that freedom not be taken for granted. And I’m sure it is you do that.
Yeonmi Park: Oh, it’s really my pleasure and thanks for listening to my story. I’m really thank you.
Bob Zadek: Yeonmi, and I wish you so much success and luck and happiness and most important, enjoy the freedom. I do not take it for granted and I know the intense happiness that you must feel now living in a free society.
Yeonmi Park: Oh, thank you very much.
Bob Zadek: Thank you so much Yeonmi for sharing your story with us. Thank you Yeonmi.
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