Patri Friedman is the co-founder of the Seasteading Institute and, later, the founder of Pronomos Capital. He appeared on The Bob Zadek Show in two episodes more than a decade apart, first to discuss building autonomous micro-nations on the ocean and later to discuss land-based charter cities developed in partnership with existing governments.
Seasteading and the case for exit
In a 2009 episode, Bob Zadek introduced Friedman as “one of the co-founders of the Seasteading Institute,” an organization Zadek described as promoting “building dwellings offshore in the ocean, outside of the territorial limits of any country” Seasteading (2009). Friedman characterized seasteading as “homesteading the high seas,” explaining that the pioneers once headed west to homestead open land but that now every bit of land has been claimed by some government, leaving no blank canvas for new social systems. The ocean, he said, should be opened “as the next frontier for human advancement.”
Friedman framed the project in industrial terms: government today is an industry with “just a few large firms, the current 150 countries or so, that are huge, much too big to innovate.” Seasteading would let people start many small countries that are more experimental, producing “government startups” that test what works rather than argue about it. Zadek offered the metaphor of “a sea-based Silicon Valley incubator for new countries,” which Friedman accepted, comparing it to an industry where customers can easily switch from one provider to another and thereby generate competitive innovation.
Zadek pressed Friedman on whether the enterprise was meant specifically to produce libertarian government. Friedman answered that his “personal political passion is for free markets and free countries,” but that he valued the idea precisely because it would work even if libertarianism turned out to be wrong: if people can try different political systems, the world improves either way, since failed experiments are abandoned and successful ones attract residents. He called this “an innately humble idea.”
Citizenship, taxes and the mechanics
Zadek asked whether seasteading presupposes that participants surrender their United States citizenship. Friedman said the answer differs by time scale. In the short term, people would keep their existing citizenships; living and working outside the United States, the first $90,000 of income is tax-free, with taxes owed to the US above that. In the medium term, he anticipated that wealthier participants would obtain what he called economic citizenships — paying a fee or making an investment in a country in exchange for citizenship — noting that fewer such programs exist than before 9/11. Only in the very long term, roughly 40 to 50 years out, did he expect seasteads to issue their own passports recognized by other countries, at which point people could give up their citizenships.
On the tax treatment of renunciation, Friedman described a recent change in US law: where the IRS had once claimed the right to keep taxing someone for 10 years after they gave up citizenship, it had moved to a one-time exit tax treating the person as if they had sold all their assets and owed capital gains. Zadek summarized this as a one-shot fee, and Friedman agreed, adding that it was a recent change Seasteading (2009).
Friedman was candid about the difficulty of the undertaking. Asked whether one could order a country-formation kit the way one forms a corporation, he said that was “absolutely right” as a description of the gap, and that the Institute was trying to build that kit through engineering and political research. Its goal, he said, was not to form a single country but to supply the service so that any group — 100 people, 1,000, or 10,000 — with an idea about a better way to run a society could actually do it. Financing, engineering, politics and diplomacy each presented separate problems.
Patriotism, the Free State Project and the political reset
Zadek raised the question of patriotism directly, asking whether a couple of dismal presidencies meant it was time to “get a divorce from our country.” Friedman called it a personal question. He did not expect the country to fall apart, but predicted levels of growth and government spending more like Europe’s, noting that Canada’s government spending as a share of GDP had gone down while America’s had gone up and the two had crossed. If what one loves is the founding principles of small government, non-interference and federalism — where regions compete to attract people who vote with their feet — then, he argued, starting something new is worthwhile, and competition from other countries would force the US to be a better place to live.
Zadek introduced the Free State Project as an intermediate step: a concept started by a professor in Buffalo named Jason Sorens, who identified New Hampshire as a target state and promoted a commitment by 20,000 libertarians to move there and assume political control. Zadek said he would explain after the break why Sorens picked New Hampshire. Friedman’s reply to Zadek’s framing was that space, not the ocean, is the last frontier — the ocean is the penultimate one Seasteading (2009).
From seasteading to charter cities
In a 2022 episode, Zadek reintroduced Friedman by recalling the earlier broadcast and noting that the concept of governments competing for citizens now had visible analogues in Governors DeSantis and Newsom trying to induce each other’s citizens to move. Friedman had recently founded Pronomos Capital, which Zadek described as seeking to use lessons from Silicon Valley to create a new model for urban development “where the city is the product” Patri Friedman’s Plan to Accelerate the Free Cities of the Future (2022).
Friedman acknowledged the change in posture. Where the movement had once been “in opposition to states,” he said he had “grown up and the movement has grown up,” and the current stage is about working with friendly states in a partnership: the state brings sovereignty and the project brings the ability to create economic growth and jobs. His long-term mission remains venture-backed for-profit startup city-states, which he expects will also be done in partnership with countries, particularly small ones, sharing sovereignty. Having worked on the problem for over 20 years, he estimated that an effectively sovereign startup city-state was less than 10 years away, and a recognized one perhaps less than 15.
Zadek asked about the business model and whether Pronomos supplies a kit. Friedman said there isn’t one, though there probably should be; he attributed the gap to a difficult pandemic period for him and his partners, and said that with growing funds and more staff the firm would become more hands-on. He described a range of involvement, from writing a check and making introductions to assembling a founding team and mentoring it, and said that after three, four or five more projects they would effectively have the kit.
Friedman named three audiences: governments, founders and investors. Projects are done as public-private partnerships with governments that view themselves as startups, generally small countries willing to do bold things like creating charter cities. On the founder side, he called proven entrepreneurs the biggest shortage, and said a message he had not conveyed well is that people can start now rather than waiting for a future that is “actually not” far off. On the investor side, he said early checks range from $100,000 to a million before land purchase and construction, but that materializing projects need tens of millions for initial build-outs — perhaps millions in a developing country, but tens of millions soon after.
Land and sovereignty
Zadek observed that a willing country is a prerequisite — one cannot simply plant a flag — and asked what the country contributes. Friedman said land is a big part of what investors are buying, along with infrastructure, buildings, and the operating company whose agreement with the government confers permission. Arrangements vary: some countries do not sell land and instead lease it; in some projects, as in Honduras, land is bought on the public markets like a normal transaction; elsewhere a government that owns much land and wants to promote the project contributes the land as part of the deal Patri Friedman’s Plan to Accelerate the Free Cities of the Future (2022).
Across episodes
The two episodes show a genuine change in Friedman’s own framing rather than a change in the underlying idea. In 2009 he presented seasteading as an exit from existing states — building outside territorial limits, with citizenship retained in the short term and surrendered only decades later — and he described the movement as being in opposition to states. In 2022 he described the movement as having grown up and now working in partnership with friendly states, with Pronomos Capital supplying capital and expertise while governments supply sovereignty. Friedman advanced both framings himself; Zadek’s role in each was to press the patriotism and practicality questions, and in the later episode to note that competition for citizens had become visible in the behavior of American governors.
What the sources do not cover
The excerpts do not describe Friedman’s education, professional history before the Seasteading Institute, or his family background. They do not state the founding date of the Seasteading Institute or of Pronomos Capital, nor the size of either organization. The Honduras discussion is not developed beyond the observation that land there is bought on public markets, and the excerpt breaks off mid-sentence while Friedman is describing governments that contribute land. No outcome, cost figure or legal ruling for any specific charter city project appears in the sources.
Episodes
2 appearances, 2009–2022.
- Seasteading (2009) — Autonomous floating micro-nations and competitive governance. Co-founder of the Seasteading Institute
- Patri Friedman’s Plan to Accelerate the Free Cities of the Future (2022) — Seasteading and land-based charter cities. Founder of Pronomos Capital